Home Forums Hunting Deer Hunting Proposed law to allow pistol caliber rifles during youth, disabled, and shotgun seasons

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  • Avatarberettadouble
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    Post count: 530

    Quote by: BullBlueGill

    Quote by: berettadouble

    Was on vacation and missed this. And I did not have time to read all 9 pages of posts, but this is a great idea I have advocated for years. These cartridges are already legal for Iowa, just a different format to launch them. A couple other points to throw out (again forgive me if they’ve been made already):

    It sill be a helluva lot easier to get a kid shooting a .357 carbine than a 20 slug.

    WI did away with slugs and they actually had safer seasons, in a state more populous than Iowa.

    Cost alone- my god the price of sabots to get .44 mag ballistics is crazy. Lower cost will promote more PRACTICE and competency which is something I generally don’t see in shotgun seasons.

    Those against- take the time to understand ballistics before shooting it down….

    I”m not buying that safer bit. WI has way less quality of deer because they get the CRAP beat out of them with rifles. When everyone can start popping deer with accuracy at 200-250 yards, things get real really quick. Safety wise I haven’t seen the numbers but it can’t be much. I think 1 – 3 deaths a year on average and half are self inflicted. I can’t see how a rifle would be safer, it doesn’t even make sense. a rifle is traveling a lot farther than a slug.

    Don’t have to buy it, but it is fact. http://www.wsaw.com/content/news/Wisconsins-gun-deer-season-comes-to-close-safer-season-reported-403301766.html There was no bloodbath with near 600,000 licenses sold.

    And if these are largely self inflicted and would be no different if it was a rifle, by your own statement, what does it matter then?

    I can also show studies that show a slug traveling FARTHER than a full on bottleneck rifle:
    “As Bacastow’s data, taken from the Armaments Engineering and Technology Center at Picatinny Arsenal, N.J., indicates, there is a 100 percent chance that both projectiles will ricochet when they hit the ground if shot at a zero degree angle. And when they ricochet, something strange happens. Because the heavier-constructed, slower traveling slug retains “95 percent of its energy and excellent ballistic characteristics after initially hitting the ground” on average it travels farther in total distance than the .30-06. Check out the graphs in the study for the precise numbers. So if you said .30-06—under the specified shot angle conditions—you are wrong. Shotgun slugs tend to ricochet further. (Keep in mind, of course, that as shot angle is increased, the before-ricochet distance increases as ricochet distance decreases, and therefore the .30-06 travels farther when shot angles increase past about 5 degrees.)”

    Now we’re NOT talking .30-06 guns here, we’re talking something much smaller.

    https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2012/8/23/are-shotguns-safer-than-rifles/
    http://www.wagc.com/study-shoots-holes-in-shotgun-safer-than-rifle-idea/

    IaCraigIaCraig
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    Post count: 1709

    Quote by: speng5

    Quote by: TeamAsgrow

    Quote by: speng5

    Ya still ain’t a man unless you’ve slugged one with a smooth barreled 870.

    …at 100 yds, running full bore while your blockers are firing back at you..

    And don’t question my ethics either. 60% of the time, I hit running deer 100% of the time.

    It only counts if it is your 870’s 28 or 30 inch smooth bird barrel, anyone can do it with a smooth bore slug barrel. 😛

    Avatardoubledrop
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    Post count: 315

    I would support this bill if the minimal handgun cartridges would be dropped from the legal rifle list of approved cartridges, such as the .45ACP. By putting this in a rifle the ability to hit your target exceeds the range that it has the energy to cleanly take a deer sized animal. The list of approved rounds should be based on energy at 100yds. reflecting the added distance that the rifle format allows. I’m all for straight walled rifle rounds at these ranges but many of those handgun rounds lack the energy needed at these extended ranges.

    AvatarBullBlueGill
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    Post count: 156

    Quote by: berettadouble

    Quote by: BullBlueGill

    Quote by: berettadouble

    Was on vacation and missed this. And I did not have time to read all 9 pages of posts, but this is a great idea I have advocated for years. These cartridges are already legal for Iowa, just a different format to launch them. A couple other points to throw out (again forgive me if they’ve been made already):

    It sill be a helluva lot easier to get a kid shooting a .357 carbine than a 20 slug.

    WI did away with slugs and they actually had safer seasons, in a state more populous than Iowa.

    Cost alone- my god the price of sabots to get .44 mag ballistics is crazy. Lower cost will promote more PRACTICE and competency which is something I generally don’t see in shotgun seasons.

    Those against- take the time to understand ballistics before shooting it down….

    I”m not buying that safer bit. WI has way less quality of deer because they get the CRAP beat out of them with rifles. When everyone can start popping deer with accuracy at 200-250 yards, things get real really quick. Safety wise I haven’t seen the numbers but it can’t be much. I think 1 – 3 deaths a year on average and half are self inflicted. I can’t see how a rifle would be safer, it doesn’t even make sense. a rifle is traveling a lot farther than a slug.

    Don’t have to buy it, but it is fact. http://www.wsaw.com/content/news/Wisconsins-gun-deer-season-comes-to-close-safer-season-reported-403301766.html There was no bloodbath with near 600,000 licenses sold.

    And if these are largely self inflicted and would be no different if it was a rifle, by your own statement, what does it matter then?

    I can also show studies that show a slug traveling FARTHER than a full on bottleneck rifle:
    “As Bacastow�s data, taken from the Armaments Engineering and Technology Center at Picatinny Arsenal, N.J., indicates, there is a 100 percent chance that both projectiles will ricochet when they hit the ground if shot at a zero degree angle. And when they ricochet, something strange happens. Because the heavier-constructed, slower traveling slug retains �95 percent of its energy and excellent ballistic characteristics after initially hitting the ground� on average it travels farther in total distance than the .30-06. Check out the graphs in the study for the precise numbers. So if you said .30-06�under the specified shot angle conditions�you are wrong. Shotgun slugs tend to ricochet further. (Keep in mind, of course, that as shot angle is increased, the before-ricochet distance increases as ricochet distance decreases, and therefore the .30-06 travels farther when shot angles increase past about 5 degrees.)”

    Now we’re NOT talking .30-06 guns here, we’re talking something much smaller.

    https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2012/8/23/are-shotguns-safer-than-rifles/
    http://www.wagc.com/study-shoots-holes-in-shotgun-safer-than-rifle-idea/

    Gotcha, makes sense.

    Avatarberettadouble
    Participant
    Post count: 530

    Quote by: doubledrop

    I would support this bill if the minimal handgun cartridges would be dropped from the legal rifle list of approved cartridges, such as the .45ACP. By putting this in a rifle the ability to hit your target exceeds the range that it has the energy to cleanly take a deer sized animal. The list of approved rounds should be based on energy at 100yds. reflecting the added distance that the rifle format allows. I’m all for straight walled rifle rounds at these ranges but many of those handgun rounds lack the energy needed at these extended ranges.

    This is a very good point, I think the handgun cartridge list need reviewed all around (.38 Super? Really?).

    I think a magazine limit of some sort wouldn’t be a bad thing either, same for shotgun (and no, I’m not saying a ban on high caps, I own a ton- just for hunting deer)

    It would be interesting to see some life breathed back into the levergun market and spark some others, like the discontinued HR HandiRifles and pistol cal Ruger 77s…

    Avatarsep0667
    Participant
    Post count: 1088

    I just see this as a slippery slope to more regulation changes in the future. I’ve always been a big proponent for supporting the regs they way they have been. That is why IA is always known as one of the top deer states. No guns during the rut is the biggest advantage we have in having a good deer herd and having a better opportunity at a nice buck.

    I don’t know much about the ballistics of rifles etc. I just know that with anything, that changes lead to more changes. I’m not saying these rifles are more lethal or allow for longer shots at deer than a muzzleloader or some shotguns. We just added xbow in the late season, now possibly adding some riles during the gun season and youth, what is next? Many nonresidents and nonresident landowners push for more tags or over the counter tags for them. Opening that up would mean tougher access and more pressure on the deer, but that is a whole other topic.

    Natural resources are a very fragile thing and can be devastated quickly. I love deer and deer hunting, I just want to protect the resource we currently have and am leery of any changes. There are a whole lot of people from the outside looking in licking their lips to have what we have.

    Avatarisu22andy
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    Post count: 326

    Yeah, it doesnt shoot any further , but that doesnt mean every tom dick and harry wont be having a 40 cal Hipoint carbine with a 25 round mag just chopping away at running deer out their cousin eddys pickup window. You can argue that you can do that with slug guns too- but id like to see you shoot 25 rounds on target with a slug vs a 40 carbine, the carbine isnt going to jump the sights 7-12 inches everytime. Its a bad move in my eye. 50 Beowolf ARs . Iowas fragile enough as it is . This isnt the deer herd we had in 2006.

    Avatarberettadouble
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    Post count: 530

    Quote by: isu22andy

    Yeah, it doesnt shoot any further , but that doesnt mean every tom dick and harry wont be having a 40 cal Hipoint carbine with a 25 round mag just chopping away at running deer out their cousin eddys pickup window. You can argue that you can do that with slug guns too- but id like to see you shoot 25 rounds on target with a slug vs a 40 carbine, the carbine isnt going to jump the sights 7-12 inches everytime. Its a bad move in my eye. 50 Beowolf ARs . Iowas fragile enough as it is . This isnt the deer herd we had in 2006.

    If they’re willing to break the law by shooting out the window of a truck what’s to stop them from breaking the firearm law now?

    Let’s see how it goes and maybe put in a magazine restriction if its a problem. Apply the same restriction to shotguns also.

    Besides, a Hipoint is no danger to deer in any form 😀

    And if you can stop change, brother, you’d be the first.

    AvatarMaverick
    Participant
    Post count: 4709

    Quote by: isu22andy

    Yeah, it doesnt shoot any further , but that doesnt mean every tom dick and harry wont be having a 40 cal Hipoint carbine with a 25 round mag just chopping away at running deer out their cousin eddys pickup window. You can argue that you can do that with slug guns too- but id like to see you shoot 25 rounds on target with a slug vs a 40 carbine, the carbine isnt going to jump the sights 7-12 inches everytime. Its a bad move in my eye. 50 Beowolf ARs . Iowas fragile enough as it is . This isnt the deer herd we had in 2006.

    You’re implying that someone who is willing to shoot at running deer out of the window of a truck is suddenly going to worry about if the weapon they are using to break the law is legal?

    AvatarTrapCyclone
    Participant
    Post count: 2552

    There actually are shotguns already on the market that can hold a large number of shells and could potentially be used for deer hunting if one were so inclined. One example that came up from a quick search is the Kel-Tec KSG-25 which is able to hold up to twenty 3″ shotgun shells!

    https://www.keltecweapons.com/shotguns/ksg-25/

    Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that technically one already could use an AR in .50 Beowulf for deer hunting under current rules by simply configuring it as a pistol rather than a rifle.

    Avatarspeng5
    Participant
    Post count: 2928

    Quote by: Maverick

    Quote by: isu22andy

    Yeah, it doesnt shoot any further , but that doesnt mean every tom dick and harry wont be having a 40 cal Hipoint carbine with a 25 round mag just chopping away at running deer out their cousin eddys pickup window. You can argue that you can do that with slug guns too- but id like to see you shoot 25 rounds on target with a slug vs a 40 carbine, the carbine isnt going to jump the sights 7-12 inches everytime. Its a bad move in my eye. 50 Beowolf ARs . Iowas fragile enough as it is . This isnt the deer herd we had in 2006.

    You’re implying that someone who is willing to shoot at running deer out of the window of a truck is suddenly going to worry about if the weapon they are using to break the law is legal?

    x2. Thats the logic I got from that post.

    If I remember right, thats what people said when the introduced the centerfire season in souther Iowa some years ago. People were crying foul that poachers would start popping deer out their truck windows at night because they could now have a weapon capable of greater range. News flash, those same folks were still popping deer at night out the truck window long before rifles were legal. The brief legalization of rifles in southern IA years ago didn’t coincide with the invention of the centerfire rifle, good grief.

    Avatarisu22andy
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    Post count: 326

    All im saying is theirs plenty of clowns running around now chasing them with pickups and blasting them out the window as they fly through fields – (if you dont believe me get a marine radio on 1st and 2nd shotgun and flip it to scan I bet I had 10 groups going in my area I could hear) . You can argue the – “if their going to break the law shooting out a window whats going to stop them from using a rifle now argument” but I bet 90 percent of truck chased deer in Iowa are used with a shotgun during the shotgun seasons – shocker!

    I remember people chasing deer with pickups when I was in GRADE school in the early 90s still hear bar/gas station stories of it now as an adult. You give them one more advantage ten more rounds that doesnt recoil its not going to be good. You ever try to hammer 25 rounds in a row with a slug gun? I cant even get 3 in a row without me stepping back a few feet and the sight plane to be above my target 5 foot. Try it with a 40 carbine – you can actually aim and hammer a whole mag and somewhat aim to spray. Own em both and tried it both target shooting.

    Why open the door to a situation that could be abused ? Why contour to fit everyone’s “wants and needs” in the outdoors? I Thought we were outdoorsmen we make it work with what we have? Why fix it when its not broke ? Slippery slope….

    Avatarspeng5
    Participant
    Post count: 2928

    Quote by: isu22andy

    Why open the door to a situation that could be abused?

    Guns can be used in committing crimes. Cars can lead to people speeding. Fast food can make people fat.

    Would you rather those things not have ever been invented? Literally everything can be abused. Potential abuse is a piss poor argument against doing something 9 times out of 10.

    Quote by: isu22andy

    Why contour to fit everyone’s “wants and needs” in the outdoors?

    Do some research, they’re not doing it to be some kind of special snowflake, leftist, safe-space seeking tolerance-nazis. They’re doing it to increase revenue in the form of tags, and boost local retail economy (through interest and thus participation in deer hunting), and I personally believe because of disease in part of our state. This proposed change has bi-partisan support.

    Quote by: isu22andy

    Why fix it when its not broke ?

    By that logic nothing would ever be invented, improved or released until life got so craptastically awful we as a society couldn’t take it anymore. Sometimes you gotta just try stuff. If this passes, I trust the IDNR enough that they will axe it after a year or 2 if it is shown that harvests go through the roof at an unsustainable rate.

    AvatarCRIA1576
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    Post count: 571

    X2 and agreed on all points (again) Speng.

    As the OP of this thread, I am going to repeat my original desire for this law to pass (again), and that is to introduce more youth to the sport at an earlier age. I would gladly put my 11 year old daughter behind the sights of a .38/.357, .45LC, or .44 mag lever gun. She is going to shoot it better, the recoil won’t make it a drag, and the carbine would be a nice fit for her frame now and in the future. Even with thousands of rounds behind a .22lr, moving to a 20 gauge with slugs is a big step and the recoil alone could turn her off forever.

    The “don’t fix it if it ain’t broke” mentality needs to be put to pasture. I’m 42 years old, 6’1″ and 215 pounds and have been hunting my entire life. The bottom line is that shooting slugs sucks. Shooting my muzzleloader is marginally better and then there is the cleaning. If we want to continue the hunting tradition, we have to start with the youth, and just because many of us had to do things the hard way doesn’t mean there isn’t a better way for our kids and grandkids to learn. With the guns and technology that are available today, why would ANYBODY be satisfied with putting a kid behind a smooth bore bird barrelled 870, keeping a few slugs inside a “dinner plate” at 50 yards when there is an option out there that:

    1. Can likely put 50 rounds inside a tea cup at that range and have a dang good time shooting it
    2. Won’t leave the kids’ shoulders black and blue
    3. Costs less than a buck a round to shoot
    4. Fits them better than “Dad’s gun”
    5. Etc….
    6. Etc….
    7. Etc… .

    For those of you keeping track of Asgrow’s progression with the Mossberg 220, he is taking a huge step in the right direction for the Boys Asgrow. For my daughter and my friends’ kids, I would gladly do the same and let them take a crack at it with my new lever gun if this bill passes.

    The old way is not always the best way, and a busted up shoulder hasn’t ever made too many kids jump out of bed in the morning to go hunting.

    WhipWhip
    Participant
    Post count: 2382

    My uncle who lived in Southern Iowa told me stories of hunting deer and stags in Germany with an M1 carbine during the days following the end of the war. He loved the gun and caliber. To bad he passed or Im sure he would have loved to hunt deer in Iowa with the M1 if this becomes law.

    Whip

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