Home Forums Hunting Firearms Legislation Discussing and Implementing Ideas for Protecting Our Schools

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  • Avatarscherrman
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    Post count: 366

    Quote by: BrownItsDown

    Quote by: scherrman

    I think teachers carrying in school is scarier than the potential for an outside shooter. What’s going to happen when a teacher carrying a gun goes through some personal disaster and losing his mind during class? What’s going to happen if a kid or kids overtake a teacher and take his gun? What’s going to happen if a kid gets upset with his teacher and falsely tells police that his teacher pulled his gun on him? There are reasons why schools are gun free places.

    If I only look at it one sided it sounds like a great idea and no kid with ever want to mess with a school ever again. I don’t think about things that way though. I try to see the whole picture and multiple scenarios that, not might, but are likely to happen. I’m not trying to shoot down ideas, just trying to be realistic. Maybe I’m thinking this way because my wife is a teacher along with lots of family and friends and I hear everyday what school is like.

    If this mentality prevails, we’ll never know, and mass school carnage will continue, because schools will remain ‘gun free places’. We can sit around and play out infinite ‘what-if’ scenarios. While we do, our school children are at risk of being murdered in their classrooms by unopposed terrorists.

    Bring actual discipline back into our schools. Give authority back to the teachers. Common sense type stuff. Well behaved / disciplined students won’t overtake a teacher and take their firearm. Mental and emotional instability happens to everyone throughout their lives. Should none of us be allowed to carry firearms? Because, that ‘what-if’ scenario can and does happen to all of us at one point in time or another.

    Saying we can’t sit around and play out infinite ‘what-if’ scenarios works both ways though. People have multiple opinions on what can be done to solve this problem. I feel they all have some merit and should be considered to a certain extent. The problem is many people are very loyal to a certain side or party and are not willing to entertain anyone else’s ideas.

    I feel I’m in the middle. More of an independent type person that see’s value from ideas on multiple sides. I’m willing to listen and entertain all ideas. Then those ideas need to be broken down and determined which one makes the most sense. Which is the most feasible and can accomplish something. Start there and see what the results are. Continue trying other ideas as well. I don’t think there is just one way to fix this problem.

    llewellinsetterllewellinsetter
    Blocked
    Post count: 2514

    Quote by: scherrman

    Quote by: BrownItsDown

    Quote by: scherrman

    I think teachers carrying in school is scarier than the potential for an outside shooter. What’s going to happen when a teacher carrying a gun goes through some personal disaster and losing his mind during class? What’s going to happen if a kid or kids overtake a teacher and take his gun? What’s going to happen if a kid gets upset with his teacher and falsely tells police that his teacher pulled his gun on him? There are reasons why schools are gun free places.

    If I only look at it one sided it sounds like a great idea and no kid with ever want to mess with a school ever again. I don’t think about things that way though. I try to see the whole picture and multiple scenarios that, not might, but are likely to happen. I’m not trying to shoot down ideas, just trying to be realistic. Maybe I’m thinking this way because my wife is a teacher along with lots of family and friends and I hear everyday what school is like.

    If this mentality prevails, we’ll never know, and mass school carnage will continue, because schools will remain ‘gun free places’. We can sit around and play out infinite ‘what-if’ scenarios. While we do, our school children are at risk of being murdered in their classrooms by unopposed terrorists.

    Bring actual discipline back into our schools. Give authority back to the teachers. Common sense type stuff. Well behaved / disciplined students won’t overtake a teacher and take their firearm. Mental and emotional instability happens to everyone throughout their lives. Should none of us be allowed to carry firearms? Because, that ‘what-if’ scenario can and does happen to all of us at one point in time or another.

    Saying we can’t sit around and play out infinite ‘what-if’ scenarios works both ways though. People have multiple opinions on what can be done to solve this problem. I feel they all have some merit and should be considered to a certain extent. The problem is many people are very loyal to a certain side or party and are not willing to entertain anyone else’s ideas.

    I feel I’m in the middle. More of an independent type person that see’s value from ideas on multiple sides. I’m willing to listen and entertain all ideas. Then those ideas need to be broken down and determined which one makes the most sense. Which is the most feasible and can accomplish something. Start there and see what the results are. Continue trying other ideas as well. I don’t think there is just one way to fix this problem.

    Yep. As long as there is a human variable there will never be a “fix” to any problem and the biggest problem is that we think we should be able to fix everything. People will always have the what ifs, should have, could have’s would haves.

    Just like this case…
    There were tips to the FBI that the shooter was a threat. Nothing.
    There were 40 visits to his house by police. Nothing
    The school said “he walked to ward the school with a purpose” in other words, they knew he was coming. Nothing.
    There was an armed policeman. Nothing

    IMO, teachers should have the right to carry just like any other citizen and schools should not be “gun free zones”. BUT, the idea that this will “fix” the problem is just pretending you can control all the variables in every situation and have them play out the way you want them to. Guess what? They won’t.

    Unless you want to use Israel as a model for American schools (in no way shape or form do I) you will never prevent anything, and even then, bad things still happen. That’s life.

    Sarcasm entails a few things: one of them is intellect, another one is a sense of humor, and a third - not taking things too personally.

    WhipWhip
    Participant
    Post count: 2380

    Unfortunate situation all the way around.

    Whip

    AvatarBrownItsDown
    Participant
    Post count: 1066

    Quote by: llewellinsetter

    IMO, teachers should have the right to carry just like any other citizen and schools should not be “gun free zones”. BUT, the idea that this will “fix” the problem is just pretending you can control all the variables in every situation and have them play out the way you want them to. Guess what? They won’t.

    Unless you want to use Israel as a model for American schools (in no way shape or form do I) you will never prevent anything, and even then, bad things still happen. That’s life.

    !!! Condescending Petty Verbal Retribution ALERT !!!

    llewellinsetter, Your comments prove that you’re out of touch with reality and delusional. They do nothing but provide fodder to the Anti 2nd Amendment movement.

    AvatarBrownItsDown
    Participant
    Post count: 1066

    I didn’t introduce this Topic to discuss how to ‘Fix’ our depraved society/culture or the mental illness epidemic within it, as stated up-front.

    The ideas introduced for discussion solely pertain to protecting our school children from being injured and murdered by acts of terrorism, (A.K.A. ‘School Shootings’). These ideas, by not means, attempt to ‘Fix’ our broken culture or ‘Fix’ our mental illness epidemic. Those things must be addressed elsewhere, by ALL OF US. (An entirely different multi-faceted discussion.)

    Back to supporting / promoting public school staff to carry firearms… Just the fact alone of knowing school staff could be or are armed, is an absolute deterrent to terrorists. Talk about a way to keep terrorists out of school buildings… The threat of school staff being able to shoot back will at least make would-be terrorists second guess their plans of terrorism. At most, it will stop them from attacking before they ever get started. Talk about preventative measures…

    I’ve posed the following question a few times and have yet to receive any response. What types of annual or periodic ‘Training’ do public school staff / faculty / teachers receive? Is any of this ‘Training’ mandatory, or is it all optional? If any ‘Training’ is mandatory, what is it, and better yet, how does it fly for it to be mandated / required?

    Thanks for the feedback everyone! Please keep it coming. BID

    AvatarTeamAsgrow
    Participant
    Post count: 9151

    Quote by: BrownItsDown

    I didn’t introduce this Topic to discuss how to ‘Fix’ our depraved society/culture or the mental illness epidemic within it, as stated up-front.

    The ideas introduced for discussion solely pertain to protecting our school children from being injured and murdered by acts of terrorism, (A.K.A. ‘School Shootings’). These ideas, by not means, attempt to ‘Fix’ our broken culture or ‘Fix’ our mental illness epidemic. Those things must be addressed elsewhere, by ALL OF US. (An entirely different multi-faceted discussion.)

    Back to supporting / promoting public school staff to carry firearms… Just the fact alone of knowing school staff could be or are armed, is an absolute deterrent to terrorists. Talk about a way to keep terrorists out of school buildings… The threat of school staff being able to shoot back will at least make would-be terrorists second guess their plans of terrorism. At most, it will stop them from attacking before they ever get started. Talk about preventative measures…

    I’ve posed the following question a few times and have yet to receive any response. What types of annual or periodic ‘Training’ do public school staff / faculty / teachers receive? Is any of this ‘Training’ mandatory, or is it all optional? If any ‘Training’ is mandatory, what is it, and better yet, how does it fly for it to be mandated / required?

    Thanks for the feedback everyone! Please keep it coming. BID

    Are you talking specifically about what training related to school safety are required? Or just mandatory training that teachers must take?

    Avatarvettman1
    Participant
    Post count: 67

    You guys are making this too hard. Do it through the laws we currently have…

    724.4B subsection 2 b…. in bold below

    724.4B Carrying firearms on school grounds � penalty � exceptions.
    1. A person who goes armed with, carries, or transports a firearm of any kind, whether concealed or not, on the grounds of a school commits a class �D� felony. For the purposes of this section, �school� means a public or nonpublic school as defined in section 280.2.

    2. Subsection 1 does not apply to the following:

    a. A person listed under section 724.4, subsection 4, paragraphs �b� through �f� or �j�.

    b. A person who has been specifically authorized by the school to go armed with, carry, or transport a firearm on the school grounds, including for purposes of conducting an instructional program regarding firearms.

    Let your school board pass that anyone with an Iowa Permit to Carry can carry on school grounds within the district. Then post signs like these.

    Someone get me an “Easy” button…

    Avatarfowl_attitude
    Participant
    Post count: 602

    Teachers are required by state law to take a Mandatory Reporter of Abuse training (signs of child abuse), blood pathogens (for when kiddos get sick in your class), a restraint/ restriction or isolation (for disciplining children).

    required by our district: a copy right law course (so as to not misuse material in your class)

    Coaches are required by state law to take yearly concussion head trauma course. Head coaches are also required to watch a rules video at the start of their season every year for their sport.

    These courses are about a 45 minute video that you watch and print off a certificate of completion at the end. All of these are yearly except the Child abuse is a 5 year certificate.

    Plus we are required to take 5 credit hours of content to renew our licenses every 5 years.

    Avatarfowl_attitude
    Participant
    Post count: 602

    It is not as easy as you think. 65% of teachers in our district (we are about the 15-18th largest district in Iowa) are female. They are not necessarily as comfortable with firearms as you and I are. My wife is married to an NRA member and she is not comfortable with firearms. The conversations in my building of 120 teachers have not been “what a great idea”. They have been “are you crazy? What if a student wrestles the firearm away?” ” I don’t want the teacher next to me armed.” You are asking them to accept something they are not comfortable with in the first place. And that is their right. Most of them don’t hunt, don’t shoot, don’t understand why I would be an NRA member. A few of them think teachers like me are part of the problem. So this battle is larger than any of you realize. Do I think taking the “no guns allowed signs ” down would help? Yes. Do I think putting a different sign up would help? Yes. But the reality is, most of my co-workers do not think that way. In large districts like mine, that is going to be the case. And this conversation is only making them dig their heals in even more right now.

    Avatarvettman1
    Participant
    Post count: 67

    So the idea about concealed is that no one knows who is carrying a firearm. Don’t force teachers to take training. Let them decide. Some people will and some won’t. The result is that the BG has no idea who is and isn’t carrying. Advantage – to the good guys/gals.

    Don’t give up so easily! Talk to your school leadership. If the schoolboard members don’t like it, vote in ones that will.

    llewellinsetterllewellinsetter
    Blocked
    Post count: 2514

    Quote by: BrownItsDown

    Quote by: llewellinsetter

    IMO, teachers should have the right to carry just like any other citizen and schools should not be “gun free zones”. BUT, the idea that this will “fix” the problem is just pretending you can control all the variables in every situation and have them play out the way you want them to. Guess what? They won’t.

    Unless you want to use Israel as a model for American schools (in no way shape or form do I) you will never prevent anything, and even then, bad things still happen. That’s life.

    !!! Condescending Petty Verbal Retribution ALERT !!!

    llewellinsetter, Your comments prove that you’re out of touch with reality and delusional. They do nothing but provide fodder to the Anti 2nd Amendment movement.

    Are you insane, do you just lack the necessary comprehension to understand a different perspective on the same topic or are you choosing not to listen to anything rational because you are hell bent on achieving a preconceived solution to a problem that is way above a simple fix?

    Sarcasm entails a few things: one of them is intellect, another one is a sense of humor, and a third - not taking things too personally.

    AvatarBrownItsDown
    Participant
    Post count: 1066

    Quote by: vettman1

    You guys are making this too hard. Do it through the laws we currently have…

    724.4B subsection 2 b…. in bold below

    724.4B Carrying firearms on school grounds � penalty � exceptions.
    1. A person who goes armed with, carries, or transports a firearm of any kind, whether concealed or not, on the grounds of a school commits a class �D� felony. For the purposes of this section, �school� means a public or nonpublic school as defined in section 280.2.

    2. Subsection 1 does not apply to the following:

    a. A person listed under section 724.4, subsection 4, paragraphs �b� through �f� or �j�.

    b. A person who has been specifically authorized by the school to go armed with, carry, or transport a firearm on the school grounds, including for purposes of conducting an instructional program regarding firearms.

    Let your school board pass that anyone with an Iowa Permit to Carry can carry on school grounds within the district. Then post signs like these.

    Someone get me an “Easy” button…

    YES!!! I LOVE IT!!!

    AvatarBrownItsDown
    Participant
    Post count: 1066

    Quote by: fowl_attitude

    Teachers are required by state law to take a Mandatory Reporter of Abuse training (signs of child abuse), blood pathogens (for when kiddos get sick in your class), a restraint/ restriction or isolation (for disciplining children).

    required by our district: a copy right law course (so as to not misuse material in your class)

    Coaches are required by state law to take yearly concussion head trauma course. Head coaches are also required to watch a rules video at the start of their season every year for their sport.

    These courses are about a 45 minute video that you watch and print off a certificate of completion at the end. All of these are yearly except the Child abuse is a 5 year certificate.

    Plus we are required to take 5 credit hours of content to renew our licenses every 5 years.

    Thank you fowl_attitude, THIS is exactly what I was asking for.

    Below, I’ve commented on 4 of the annual training sessions/courses that you have stated are mandatory:
    1. Reporting abuse training is in place to provide protection for school children in your care. Very good. So would self defense training and firearm training.
    2. Blood pathogen training is in place to provide protection for you and the school children in your care. Very good. So would self defense training and firearm training.
    3. Restraint/restriction or isolation training is in place to provide protection for you and the school children in your care. Very good. So would self defense training and firearm training.
    4. Concussion head trauma training is in place to provide protection for the school children in your care. Very good. So would self defense training and firearm training.

    So, now it’s been established that public school teachers are required to take some mandatory training, all of which listed above is designed to protect self and everyone else. Since this has been established, it is not unreasonable to propose mandatory training of any sort, including, but not limited to, self defense training and firearm training.

    Thank you. BID

    Avatarfowl_attitude
    Participant
    Post count: 602

    Quote by: vettman1

    So the idea about concealed is that no one knows who is carrying a firearm. Don’t force teachers to take training. Let them decide. Some people will and some won’t. The result is that the BG has no idea who is and isn’t carrying. Advantage – to the good guys/gals.

    Don’t give up so easily! Talk to your school leadership. If the schoolboard members don’t like it, vote in ones that will.

    I get what you are saying and I don’t disagree with it at all. I have always said there should be an element of surprise and just knowing would deter things. But that is not how my co-workers and many others around the state think, and it doesn’t make them any less concerned.

    I’ve been through a real lock down situation when it was reported a kid who was not a student in our school had tucked a firearm in his pants. He was here for an after school program. We went into lock down. SWAT came in searched the building found the student and did their thing. It turns out he had tucked a black hat in his waste band and it had shiny bill. I was so impressed with how the situation was handled from the fact someone reported something suspicious to the response time. I am in the parking lot thanking these guys and shaking their hands and glad they are so willing and ready. Other teachers are crying and traumatized by the sight of their weapons. That is the level of difference we are talking about.

    Now in that same scenario. What happens when a teacher has a firearm and this gets reported. Is the teacher now responsible to go look for the kid? Over a hat?

    AvatarBrownItsDown
    Participant
    Post count: 1066

    Quote by: fowl_attitude

    It is not as easy as you think. 65% of teachers in our district (we are about the 15-18th largest district in Iowa) are female. They are not necessarily as comfortable with firearms as you and I are. My wife is married to an NRA member and she is not comfortable with firearms. The conversations in my building of 120 teachers have not been “what a great idea”. They have been “are you crazy? What if a student wrestles the firearm away?” ” I don’t want the teacher next to me armed.” You are asking them to accept something they are not comfortable with in the first place. And that is their right. Most of them don’t hunt, don’t shoot, don’t understand why I would be an NRA member. A few of them think teachers like me are part of the problem. So this battle is larger than any of you realize. Do I think taking the “no guns allowed signs ” down would help? Yes. Do I think putting a different sign up would help? Yes. But the reality is, most of my co-workers do not think that way. In large districts like mine, that is going to be the case. And this conversation is only making them dig their heals in even more right now.

    Dude! For the last friggin time, we are talking about self defense TRAINING and firearm TRAINING being made mandatory, (which I just established isn’t illogical or unreasonable to require). I AM NOT SAYING ANY TEACHER SHOULD BE FORCED TO CARRY A WEAPON!!!

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