Home Forums Hunting Firearms Legislation Discussing and Implementing Ideas for Protecting Our Schools

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  • northwoodsbucks
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    BID

    I think we are all open to discussions about what options are available. Its not bad to throw as many ideas as possible out there, most will be bad but usually some warrant further investigation.

    The challenge here is fighting tooth and nail to keep the first idea……

    Armed guards are a possibility, using the national guard for this really is not. This is a very expensive option though and would get significant push back from many people and be very hard to implement. I would likely be one of those pushing back (on principle not cost) but really that is beyond the point.

    Allowing teachers to get training and carry a weapon may be another viable option, this could likely only be a local / state level one practically though. It might work in rural Iowa districts but would never fly in San Francisco or Iowa City. I dont know what it would mean for insurance etc but there would almost surely be some cost, might or might not be worth it though.

    Forcing firearm training is a whole different story. While not technically impossible it just will not happen, and what good would it do to force the training on someone who will never touch much less carry a gun.

    Some of the most realistic measures could be things like this (certainly not limited to these and they may also have plenty of holes in them)

    1. Increasing security infrastructure in terms of doors and ability to lock down. Even ability to lock down interior doors remotely (my high school had magnetic door holders that could be triggered remotely and then the doors would lock). Or even something as simple as door jams inside preventing doors from being opened. Something like this https://www.amazon.com/Door-Jammer-Portable-Security-Device/dp/B01KDB2L2K/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1519327843&sr=8-6&keywords=security+door+jammer
    2. Better response training for teachers
    3. Changing police patrol routes to improve response times

    If you want to make a real difference my advice to you would be to not dig in your heals on your preferred solution but to look for something that would make a difference that you can actually accomplish. Even the easiest policy change will take mountains of work, setting your sights on a nearly impossible one will not help anyone.

    BrownItsDown
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    Quote by: Maverick

    Quote by: BrownItsDown

    Quote by: Maverick

    Quote by: BrownItsDown

    Quote by: Maverick

    I’m glad the use of predictive modeling was brought up. Because that is the exact reason insurance companies will not be on board with arming teachers. They will have the actuaries plug in the numbers to compare the potential lawsuits that may arise from shootings vs. the potential lawsuits that may arise from negligent discharges, mishandling, theft, or misuse when you place hundreds of thousands of firearms into the hands of people who’s chosen profession is that of an educator, not an armed guard. I just don’t see the companies willing to assume the risk of arming teachers.

    Maverick, I hope you aren’t one of the MANY who inaccurately believe I have ever said it should be mandatory all of our school faculty/teachers to be armed. I have not ever said that…

    I have said that qualified faculty/teachers should be allowed and promoted/supported to carry a firearms. I’m thinking along the lines of a concealed carry handgun for those who are qualified and desire to carry.

    I see you chose to not address my point at all and accuse me of not understanding your posts. I’ll play along. What percentage of teachers do you think would choose to carry or what percentage would be enough to prevent/stop a threat?

    I never accused you of anything Maverick. I’ve actually addressed your point a few times within this discussion. If my was murdered in a school that I was told was a ‘safe environment’, by an unopposed terrorist that walked right in and started shooting up the place, I’m filing and probably winning a hefty civil suit. If the school’s insurance provider is on the hook for paying me, then YES, I believe insurance companies will step back and look at the benefit of allowing and even supporting armed faculty/teachers to protect the children that are within their care.

    My insurance didn’t go up when I started carrying my personal firearm, did yours? I’ve never been asked on an insurance application if I carry a firearm, have you?

    Play along? This isn’t a game Maverick.

    As for how many faculty/teachers do I think would choose to carry a firearm… My personal guess would be a low percentage, probably under 10%, (again, this is just a guess). Some is better than none though, because it only takes one to make a difference. And the difference they can make in this type of situation can save multiple lives.

    According to the National Center for Educational Statistics there were 3.5 million teachers in 2015 (3.1 public, 0.4 million private) so if say 10% decide to carry that is 350,000 firearms. (as I stated in my comment hundreds of thousands of firearms) That is now 350,000 firearms the insurance companies are now going to be liable for.

    Civil suits will arise from a shooting regardless of whether the teachers are armed or not unless zero injuries or trauma to the kids or faculty happens.(highly unlikely) So they are getting sued either way, but to add an additional 350,000 firearms they might potentially get sued over is not going to have them standing in line to support it.

    And comparing your personal insurance to that of a school is just asinine. Talk with your agent sometime and ask them about buying a commercial policy for a security guard. (think mall security, concerts, private companies). One of the first questions asked is going to be “are they armed” and if they are armed most companies will not take it. If they do agree to take it they will charge a premium so high to make it cost preventative. The reason mall cops don’t carry firearms is not because they don’t want to, it’s because they can’t afford the insurance.

    And I agree, this is not a joke. This a problem that needs addressed, but it’s not as simple as “arm the teachers that want to be armed”. I am only trying to help explain why arming teachers would be cost preventative from an insurance standpoint.

    I’m not arguing, I agree insurance premiums would probably increase, and by quite a bit. And that is unfortunate. With that said, if the insurance premiums make arming school faculty/teachers an absolute no-go, due to cost, then play out any of the school murder scenarios that have occurred over the past 2 decades. Most, if not all, of those terrorists made it into the school buildings with their weapons. Pretty easily too. So, now you’ve got armed terrorists in the building with our children. What does it cost to bulletproof the entire school from the inside out? I actually don’t know, but my educated guess is that it is an unrealistic number. Even when compared to increased insurance premiums. And, bullet proofing school buildings would be extremely time and resource consuming as well. Plus, sometimes, fortified structures can be turned into tombs because they’re just as hard to break out of as they are to break into.

    A lock-down chamber to capture criminals sounds pretty dang expensive to me too, but I like the idea. $400,000 I believe is the figure that was provided, about what it took to install this type of system in 1 school.

    My idea of making the option to arm faculty/teachers is my ‘budget friendly’ idea to oppose terrorists, once they’ve made it into the school. (It takes a good guy with a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun.) Enough people have nixed this idea in this discussion, so let’s abandon it completely. OK.

    Let’s also abandon my idea of mandating faculty/teachers to take self defense training and firearm training, as enough people have nixed this idea as well.

    Let’s also abandon my idea of placing armed National Guardsmen/women, (or other budget friendly security personnel), at the main entrances of our school buildings, because enough people have nixed this idea as well.

    So, all 3 of my ideas are off of the table, and now we’re down to basically discussing retrofitting and fortifying our school buildings to protect our children against terrorists. OK. Let’s hear supporting arguments supporting this idea, listing out the all of the physical items that should be installed / retrofitted, and please provide supporting arguments about how it could be completed in a be budget friendly manner.

    Personally, I’m all for improving our physical school buildings, but again, I don’t believe it is practical or cost effective when compared to entertaining the ideas that I originally proposed. But, the masses have spoken.

    As for predictive modeling, I’m all for this too. Great.

    As for trusting the police or the FBI to swoop in and save the day in the nick of time due to their ability to act on good predictive modeling… Their historical track record on responding to these types of school massacre type situations, tells me that we shouldn’t put much trust in them, but that’s my opinion.

    TeamAsgrow
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    First I think that if we are going to solidify school buildings a state wide code needs to be implemented, buzz in locks, alarms on doors throughout the day, training for staff to operate doors, etc. Specific measures I am not certain on, but I am sure a statewide base level of security could be developed. Districts could have more but no less than certain measures. These projects could be mandated and compliance within X number of years or funding is cut, require local option tax money ($.01 sales tax money) be used to reach code before other building improvements take place or the funding is lost. Maintain code through building inspections, possibly rolled into fire marshal inspections.

    Security improves, funding through money that is already available and compliance monitoring.

    BrownItsDown
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    Quote by: TeamAsgrow

    First I think that if we are going to solidify school buildings a state wide code needs to be implemented, buzz in locks, alarms on doors throughout the day, training for staff to operate doors, etc. Specific measures I am not certain on, but I am sure a statewide base level of security could be developed. Districts could have more but no less than certain measures. These projects could be mandated and compliance within X number of years or funding is cut, require local option tax money ($.01 sales tax money) be used to reach code before other building improvements take place or the funding is lost. Maintain code through building inspections, possibly rolled into fire marshal inspections.

    Security improves, funding through money that is already available and compliance monitoring.

    Great ideas for adding deterrence measures for keeping terrorists out of school buildings TeamAsgrow. What measures should be implemented to protect our children when a terrorist makes it into the school building? (Playing out similar historical mass school shooting scenarios.) When they make it into the building, external mechanical / electronic security measures have failed.

    BrownItsDown
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    Quote by: northwoodsbucks

    BID

    I think we are all open to discussions about what options are available. Its not bad to throw as many ideas as possible out there, most will be bad but usually some warrant further investigation.

    The challenge here is fighting tooth and nail to keep the first idea……

    Armed guards are a possibility, using the national guard for this really is not. This is a very expensive option though and would get significant push back from many people and be very hard to implement. I would likely be one of those pushing back (on principle not cost) but really that is beyond the point.

    Allowing teachers to get training and carry a weapon may be another viable option, this could likely only be a local / state level one practically though. It might work in rural Iowa districts but would never fly in San Francisco or Iowa City. I dont know what it would mean for insurance etc but there would almost surely be some cost, might or might not be worth it though.

    Forcing firearm training is a whole different story. While not technically impossible it just will not happen, and what good would it do to force the training on someone who will never touch much less carry a gun.

    Some of the most realistic measures could be things like this (certainly not limited to these and they may also have plenty of holes in them)

    1. Increasing security infrastructure in terms of doors and ability to lock down. Even ability to lock down interior doors remotely (my high school had magnetic door holders that could be triggered remotely and then the doors would lock). Or even something as simple as door jams inside preventing doors from being opened. Something like this https://www.amazon.com/Door-Jammer-Portable-Security-Device/dp/B01KDB2L2K/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1519327843&sr=8-6&keywords=security+door+jammer
    2. Better response training for teachers
    3. Changing police patrol routes to improve response times

    If you want to make a real difference my advice to you would be to not dig in your heals on your preferred solution but to look for something that would make a difference that you can actually accomplish. Even the easiest policy change will take mountains of work, setting your sights on a nearly impossible one will not help anyone.

    Good input northwoodsbucks. Thanks. When the terrorist makes it into the building, what measures are in place to protect our children? Can the windows, doors and/or walls be shot through by common firearms? Is response training for teachers mandatory, or optional? Will changing police patrol routes over tax our police force, or take them out of other areas, increasing crime elsewhere, etc.?

    TeamAsgrow
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    Quote by: BrownItsDown

    Quote by: TeamAsgrow

    First I think that if we are going to solidify school buildings a state wide code needs to be implemented, buzz in locks, alarms on doors throughout the day, training for staff to operate doors, etc. Specific measures I am not certain on, but I am sure a statewide base level of security could be developed. Districts could have more but no less than certain measures. These projects could be mandated and compliance within X number of years or funding is cut, require local option tax money ($.01 sales tax money) be used to reach code before other building improvements take place or the funding is lost. Maintain code through building inspections, possibly rolled into fire marshal inspections.

    Security improves, funding through money that is already available and compliance monitoring.

    Great ideas for adding deterrence measures for keeping terrorists out of school buildings TeamAsgrow. What measures should be implemented to protect our children when a terrorist makes it into the school building? (Playing out similar historical mass school shooting scenarios.) When they make it into the building, external mechanical / electronic security measures have failed.

    Evacuation procedures and active shooter training.

    [Url]https://www.sheehansolutions.com/[/url]
    This is a training we have had, it really opens eyes as to what is happening, what law enforcement does etc.

    The goal would be to minimize unwanted guests into the building who are armed.

    We will not cover every scenario, but being prepared, aware and have a plan of action is better than having nothing in place.

    BrownItsDown
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    Quote by: TeamAsgrow

    Quote by: BrownItsDown

    Quote by: TeamAsgrow

    First I think that if we are going to solidify school buildings a state wide code needs to be implemented, buzz in locks, alarms on doors throughout the day, training for staff to operate doors, etc. Specific measures I am not certain on, but I am sure a statewide base level of security could be developed. Districts could have more but no less than certain measures. These projects could be mandated and compliance within X number of years or funding is cut, require local option tax money ($.01 sales tax money) be used to reach code before other building improvements take place or the funding is lost. Maintain code through building inspections, possibly rolled into fire marshal inspections.

    Security improves, funding through money that is already available and compliance monitoring.

    Great ideas for adding deterrence measures for keeping terrorists out of school buildings TeamAsgrow. What measures should be implemented to protect our children when a terrorist makes it into the school building? (Playing out similar historical mass school shooting scenarios.) When they make it into the building, external mechanical / electronic security measures have failed.

    Evacuation procedures and active shooter training.


    This is a training we have had, it really opens eyes as to what is happening, what law enforcement does etc.

    The goal would be to minimize unwanted guests into the building who are armed.

    We will not cover every scenario, but being prepared, aware and have a plan of action is better than having nothing in place.

    Fantastic! Is this ‘active shooter training’ mandatory or is it optional?

    Obviously, the goal is to minimize unauthorized guests entering the building. Unfortunately, a majority of the recent mass school massacres we’re perpetrated by terrorists that successfully made it into the buildings with weapons.

    The FL school shooting scenario that just occurred, was perpetrated by a terrorist that pulled the fire alarm and waited for people to exit their classrooms. Nobody knew an armed terrorist was in the school. Would active shooter training and/or evacuation procedures have saved more lives or gotten more people killed, in this particular scenario?

    The video surveillance / security footage was on a 26 minute delay during the recent FL school shooting, so law enforcement authorities didn’t show up until well after the terrorist had walked out of the building. Do you really want to put you trust in electronic / mechanical devices and law enforcement to protect you or your children in situations like this?

    scherrman
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    There are some pretty good ideas here in theory and I’ve seen them posted on other sites as well but just like on all the other sites it always ends up with a conclusion of it not being feasible. Not all teachers want guns in their schools. Teacher are not going to want mandatory training for stuff like this. If all of the OPs ideas are implemented then you’re going to see a mass amount of teachers retiring early or quitting.

    We already have issues keeping good teachers. We have issues with giving them good pay. We have issues with funding our schools. How can schools afford to do any of the things suggested?

    BrownItsDown
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    Quote by: scherrman

    There are some pretty good ideas here in theory and I’ve seen them posted on other sites as well but just like on all the other sites it always ends up with a conclusion of it not being feasible. Not all teachers want guns in their schools. Teacher are not going to want mandatory training for stuff like this. If all of the OPs ideas are implemented then you’re going to see a mass amount of teachers retiring early or quitting.

    We already have issues keeping good teachers. We have issues with giving them good pay. We have issues with funding our schools. How can schools afford to do any of the things suggested?

    I hear ya scherrman. I would expect some public school personnel would quit or retire in response to any/all of my ideas being implemented. It would be unfortunate, but totally their choice.

    Honestly, if I were a public school teacher, I’d be pissed that I wouldn’t be allowed to conceal carry. In lieu of recent school massacres, why shouldn’t I have my constitutional right to defend myself and my class (children) to the best of my ability, if/when an armed terrorist enters my school and begins murdering people. I’ve recognized that there aren’t proper protective mechanisms in place to keep terrorists out, and recent school shootings do nothing but support what I’ve recognized as a mortal threat. Why aren’t more students, parents and school personnel up in arms about the lack of defensive mechanisms currently in place to protect innocent lives? Instead, the MSM seems to solely be targeting ‘Gun Control’ measures. SMH.

    IMO, protecting our school children from terrorists should not be paid for out of the same shoestring public education budget, and if it is, that budget should be greatly expanded to accommodate for implementing proper defensive mechanisms, accordingly.

    mhock
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    Already seeing both sides of the arming the teachers idea on all the news broadcasts. Colordo teachers that already have a unadvertised percentage of faculty carrying to the head of Iowas teachers assn saying more guns in schools is ludacris.

    Let the arguments begin and see who the loudest is before we find something to distract us from having common sense conversation as a nation. This will all blow over in a week.

    Loomis13
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    llwellsetter (spelling??) You hit the nail in the head in that the issue is with society. This is such a long process to fix society, that I think measures need to be taken to stop these shootings before we get society fixed.

    river
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    Quote by: mhock

    Already seeing both sides of the arming the teachers idea on all the news broadcasts. Colordo teachers that already have a unadvertised percentage of faculty carrying to the head of Iowas teachers assn saying more guns in schools is ludacris.

    Let the arguments begin and see who the loudest is before we find something to distract us from having common sense conversation as a nation. This will all blow over in a week.

    Just try harder to not be a fatalist mhock. Look.. you and others on here ARE having that common sense conversation. I among many others support your input and everyone else’s too. Don’t let this blow over. Stay in the game please.

    River

    kenhump
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    Quote by: river

    Quote by: mhock

    Already seeing both sides of the arming the teachers idea on all the news broadcasts. Colordo teachers that already have a unadvertised percentage of faculty carrying to the head of Iowas teachers assn saying more guns in schools is ludacris.

    Let the arguments begin and see who the loudest is before we find something to distract us from having common sense conversation as a nation. This will all blow over in a week.

    Just try harder to not be a fatalist mhock. Look.. you and others on here ARE having that common sense conversation. I among many others support your input and everyone else’s too. Don’t let this blow over. Stay in the game please.

    River

    Good words River. There are several areas to be dealt with. Internal security. Can an effective lock down be accomplished in an orderly fachion?.
    Can the areas within be compartmentalized to isolate danger area? Internal/ external communications for effective command and control of situation. External lock down of adjoining area. A source of major concern for me is the need for transparent communications between law enforcement and school officials. I am not comfortable with the schools handling things totally internal. I have seen it fail. I look at from a military point of view and see potential dangers. Armed teachers could help, but there would have to be an iron tight means of telling the good guys for law enforcement arriving. I would look to external areas able to be secured by authorized armed person. I hate to see students fleeing out exits into an unsecured area. A command and control structure that includes all agencies. NO TURF WARS!.

    BrownItsDown
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    Our POTUS’s recent comments in support of firearm training and teachers carrying firearms, align well with the ideas I’ve proposed. So, at least there’s that. Hmm…

    Here…
    https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/22/politics/donald-trump-gun-reforms-school-shooting/index.html

    And…
    https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/22/health/trump-mental-illness-comments-bn/index.html

    mhock
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    He’s also looking at raising the age to get an AR. I honestly don’t understand what anyone thinks that would do, but in an effort to see the other side of the story, if that helps some people sleep at night maybe there’s worse things to compromise on.

    kenhump
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    Quote by: BrownItsDown

    Our POTUS’s recent comments in support of firearm training and teachers carrying firearms, align well with the ideas I’ve proposed. So, at least there’s that. Hmm…

    Here…
    https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/22/politics/donald-trump-gun-reforms-school-shooting/index.html

    And…
    https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/22/health/trump-mental-illness-comments-bn/index.html

    Will only work as part of a broader plan. No LEO is going to comfortable showing up at a large school active shooter with some other people
    in civilian clothes carrying guns. This is not a quick fix situation.

    BushFamilyNine
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    School administrators and the school boards should be contacting their insurance companies to request a safety and security audit for the school. A professional assessment should be done and all upgrades recommended should be done in accordance to fire codes. This is about the only way to get a professional opinion for each school. The school board really doesn’t want nor need to hear advice from a few hundred parents on this matter. If there is federal or state monies provided for security upgrades, then each school has a realistic idea of what their budget can cover.

    As far as security for schools… small towns are lucky to have a person full time on the police force. Most first responders are EMS or fire department. Some of these people are armed, but the vast majority are not. We are more likely to have a nearby person get notified on social media of a shooting incident, and then they would respond. The comment earlier of having multiple plain clothed persons in the mix which may or may not be armed is a valid concern. I would say an armed civilian responding to assist in this situation is mentally prepared to engage the threat, unless turned away by an officer at the scene. It was revealed today that an armed officer stood outside the Florida school for four minutes of the six minute shooting spree without entering the building. The difference this person could have made will never be known, but it goes to show that having a weapon does no good if the person wearing it is not mentally prepared to engage.

    BrownItsDown
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    Quote by: kenhump

    Quote by: BrownItsDown

    Our POTUS’s recent comments in support of firearm training and teachers carrying firearms, align well with the ideas I’ve proposed. So, at least there’s that. Hmm…

    Here…
    https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/22/politics/donald-trump-gun-reforms-school-shooting/index.html

    And…
    https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/22/health/trump-mental-illness-comments-bn/index.html

    Will only work as part of a broader plan. No LEO is going to comfortable showing up at a large school active shooter with some other people
    in civilian clothes carrying guns. This is not a quick fix situation.

    Um, how is this any different than LEOs engaging an ‘active shooter’ situation anywhere else where there may be or are several plain clothed people carrying weapons? Comfortable or not, it’s their job. Legally armed civlians are already everywhere. Well, everywhere, except “Gun Free Zones”, A.K.A. our public schools. SMH.

    BrownItsDown
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    Quote by: BushFamilyNine

    School administrators and the school boards should be contacting their insurance companies to request a safety and security audit for the school. A professional assessment should be done and all upgrades recommended should be done in accordance to fire codes. This is about the only way to get a professional opinion for each school. The school board really doesn’t want nor need to hear advice from a few hundred parents on this matter. If there is federal or state monies provided for security upgrades, then each school has a realistic idea of what their budget can cover.

    As far as security for schools… small towns are lucky to have a person full time on the police force. Most first responders are EMS or fire department. Some of these people are armed, but the vast majority are not. We are more likely to have a nearby person get notified on social media of a shooting incident, and then they would respond. The comment earlier of having multiple plain clothed persons in the mix which may or may not be armed is a valid concern. I would say an armed civilian responding to assist in this situation is mentally prepared to engage the threat, unless turned away by an officer at the scene. It was revealed today that an armed officer stood outside the Florida school for four minutes of the six minute shooting spree without entering the building. The difference this person could have made will never be known, but it goes to show that having a weapon does no good if the person wearing it is not mentally prepared to engage.

    “… It was revealed today that an armed officer stood outside the Florida school for four minutes of the six minute shooting spree without entering the building. The difference this person could have made will never be known, but it goes to show that having a weapon does no good if the person wearing it is not mentally prepared to engage. …”

    What this enforces to me is that it’s a false sense of security to rely on LEOs to protect you. All the more support for arming yourself.

    IMPO, this waste of skin LEO is nearly as big of a coward as the FL shooter. He deserves to be spit on, sued, and imprisoned. But, that’s purely just my opinion.

    Anonymous
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    Quote by: BrownItsDown

    “… It was revealed today that an armed officer stood outside the Florida school for four minutes of the six minute shooting spree without entering the building. The difference this person could have made will never be known, but it goes to show that having a weapon does no good if the person wearing it is not mentally prepared to engage. …”

    What this enforces to me is that it’s a false sense of security to rely on LEOs to protect you. All the more support for arming yourself.

    IMPO, this waste of skin LEO is nearly as big of a coward as the FL shooter. He deserves to be spit on, sued, and imprisoned. But, that’s purely just my opinion.

    What this shows is that in spite of all the ideas of armed guards at schools people will still be able to carry out violence.

    It seems like this deputy should have done more but I wasn’t there. I do not know what his training was for this or protocol or thought process was at the time. He may very well have been over come by fear but I don’t know. People are human, good and bad, and to berate another for not doing something that you think they should have done without knowing any of the circumstances is ridiculous. Live is not a movie. It’s not a call of duty game. It’s unpredictable and fluid and unless you want to live in a bubble there no way you can protect yourself from all the evils in it.

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